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Komsomolets TLR

Created by Vlad on 8/15/2007 4:12:02 PM
Last Edited by RCCCUK on 10/16/2019 7:09:11 AM  
Located in
Still Cameras > GOMZ / LOMO - Komsomolets/Lubitel

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams

Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  1:07:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello,

I was luck to buy the Komsomolets with frame counter recently. All sympthoms refer it should be the oldest one. I would be very appreciated to know what types of Komsomolets camera do you have in your collections? Now I have 3 different looking Komsomolets with T-21 lens and the late one with T-22. I have heard that very late ones had an additional 1/200s speed, is it the truth?

Best Regards,
Aidas

Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
988 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  2:06:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Mine is "type B" with filter chamber and red counter window, T-21 and 1/100 shutter. #4758034.

Smena rules
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  2:20:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cedricfan

Mine is "type B" with filter chamber and red counter window, T-21 and 1/100 shutter. #4758034.

Smena rules



Juhani,

what you mean by "type B"?


Thanks,
Aidas
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
988 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  2:40:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Your website types!

Smena rules
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  3:49:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Mine's the one in the catalog Not sure what type..
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  4:00:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just looked at Aidas's site, mine is Type C.. didn't know there were different types... oh man... I'm running out of money getting all these variations... It's a never ending adventure... hehehe... getting more and more expensive the more you collect... yikes!
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
988 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  11:26:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Knowledge adds pain...

Smena rules
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 13 2008 :  11:49:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cedricfan

Your website types!

Smena rules



thanks ... I've been forgotten about that source ...
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 14 2008 :  04:17:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you will take a look at the earliest Komsomolets (not placed on my website yet), you will see different design of shutter plate again. So a, b, c type markings will be moved up again ...


Edited by - AidasCams on Feb 14 2008 04:18:12 AM
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 14 2008 :  10:04:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A most curious specimen . so where is that frame counter? I see 3 little circles on the side.
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
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Posted - Feb 14 2008 :  3:10:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This curious Komsomolets seems to be made from original bodies (or dies) from original pre-war Voigtlander Brilliant cameras.(the counter proves that)
Interesting to note that all (my known) Komsomolets has the same basic ZT shutters further used on Lubitel cameras but lacks the gear train of speeds regulation , Instead they have a variable wheight that can offer 3 speeds. These shutters are of different conception of the original Brilliant shutters. The lenses also vary because they are direct descendants of "Nettar" series from Zeiss both in Komsomolets and all Lubitel up to the end of production (166 Universal).
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
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Posted - Feb 14 2008 :  4:51:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interesting! what's also intriguing me though that is has the Leningrad inscription on the bottom as well, so it is a modified Brilliant die and not the original unchanged die, but I guess then, later, to simplify the production they had removed the counter windows and the mechanism itself...also notice how much thicker and heavier are the cocking and release levers! Is this typical of later Komsomolets cameras? Mine has the standard flat Lubitel-type levers.... They also look much more intricate to produce and probably later were simplified as well into what we have all seen...
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Feb 14 2008 :  10:31:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Instead they have a variable wheight that can offer 3 speeds.

It would be very interesting mechanics there! And it should be really simple! But how weights work if camera up side down?
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 15 2008 :  06:13:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
... one more picture of the same camers ...

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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 15 2008 :  08:46:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have numbers for 7 Komsomol'tsev. 5 of them I still have, including the '47 models. I will check them out and report here this weekend.

Komsomolets 476444 frame counter
Komsomolets 4713334 frame counter (will verify)
Komsomolets 4876455
Komsomolets 4911579
Komsomolets 4954231
Komsomolets 5023658

Yuri
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 15 2008 :  11:45:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yuri,

Thank you very much for your Komsomolets info!


Regards,
Aidas
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 16 2008 :  4:07:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas, here they are. I will post links, since the images are large. I also have original (10 megapixel), if you need them, please ask. Feel free to use these images. Serial numbers are in file names.

All 5 cameras have filter compartments, though none has filters in them.

The oldest, with a frame counter 476444

http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms476444.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms476444b.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms476444s.jpg

The next 4 cameras (1948-49)are common variation, but you can see that the molds are different. Some were from the early batch (left side, looking at the front, has screws that cover what used to be a frame counter), some from the later batch, when the simply molded the whole side together with the body.

http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms48128228.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms48128228b.jpg

http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4876455.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4876455b.jpg

http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4911579.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4911579b.jpg

http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4954231.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4954231b.jpg

This one, is the newest, 5023658, and it is almost a Lubitel. It has a T-22 shutter, all-black shutter front, speeds engraved on the side, and the red window has a cover ofer it, just like a Lubitel. And to save even more, they removed the Leningrad from the bottom.





http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms5023658.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms5023658b.jpg
http://www.fedka.com//Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms5023658p.jpg
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  04:14:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yuri,

I'm very appreciated to get this information - thank you very much! Itt seems to me, that at least 10 versions of Komsomolets were issued and our task to know them all ...

I'm absolutely sure, that Komsomolets with frame counter is very rare to find, so lucky you and me. Viktor Suglob has evidences, that these early cameras were produced since 1944 (!), so may be we have to split categories not into prewar and postwar ones, but to add one more "wartime cameras" ...

Best Regards,
Aidas

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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  08:09:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas,
I am not questioning Victor, but it would be odd to see a consumer camera production in 1944. Do you know ANY consumer camera that was made during the war?
As far as frame counter - it is surely very uncommon, but my records show two of them, though I was able to find only one (the other one was probably sold or traded sometime ago, and I did not record this).
My point here is that it is not as rare as other exotic cameras, such as TSVVS, no-name Contax, and such.
If you look at the serial number spread for this version (with the counter), at least thousands were made.

Yuri
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  08:31:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas,
Can you post a picture of the back door of your "counter" Komsomolets from 1947? I want to see the film window location.

Thank you,
Yuri
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  11:17:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yuri,

I didn't find a picture of rear door recently, but I can confirm, that film window is left-sided, not centered as usual.

I have got an interesting message from Estonian camera collector recently, concerning our dispute. He have sent me at least 5 versions of Komsomolets cameras, starting from the early one. The most interesting thing - his early "counter" Komsomolets has left-sided window, but comes with later shutter design. That confirms me, that at least 3 version of "counter" Komsomolets existing for sure ...
I will try to clasify all the Komsomolets known to publish in our Forums, ok?

Thanks again for your information!

Regards,
Aidas

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  11:55:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yuri,

Could you check the serial number of your Komsomolets #48128228. It's the only camera, that doesn't fit my system ...

Thanks,
Aidas
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  2:03:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

Just looked at Aidas's site, mine is Type C.. didn't know there were different types... oh man... I'm running out of money getting all these variations... It's a never ending adventure... hehehe... getting more and more expensive the more you collect... yikes!



Vlad,

sorry to say you, but you need at least eight (8) more Komsomolets to call your Komsomolet's collection more or less complete ...


Regards,
Aidas
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  3:51:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas,
To complete by research, this is the last Komsomolets I have, and it is also with the frame counter.

http://www.fedka.com/Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4713334.jpg
http://www.fedka.com/Pics/Komsomol'tsy/koms4713334b.jpg

Notice that this one has a window on a side, which is different from the 476444, which ahs window in the middle.
I have no explanation for this. If we agree that 476444 is a lower number than 4713334, then GOMS first made middle window, later for some reason changed it to a side window, and then, at some point again switched to the middle window.
And why the side window at all?? 6x6 frames have number in the center, correct?

Here is a picture of the backs 476444 and 4713334


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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  3:54:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AidasCams

Yuri,

Could you check the serial number of your Komsomolets #48128228. It's the only camera, that doesn't fit my system ...

Thanks,
Aidas



Aidas,
Sorry, here is the verification:

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  4:46:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yura,

check the one with the window on the left.. are you sure is it still 6x6? Usually 6x9 are on the side.. how odd...

and by the way I hate you guys! lol .. Now I have to get 7 more Komsomolets cameras...
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 17 2008 :  5:21:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Vlad,
No, it is still 6x6. If you open the back door, both cameras look identical inside.
Yuri
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 18 2008 :  12:51:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yuri,

Thanks for your missing links ...! I have only one assumption for your Komsomolets #476444 with centered window - the rear door is replaced from the later batch. I have checked all known early "counter" Komsomolets and all of them are left-sided ... So, good news for Vlad indeed , while 1st version has only two types, not the three ones ...

I need some more time, to make my initial conclusions. Now I have at least 5 versions with 8-9 types ...

Regards,
Aidas
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 18 2008 :  09:22:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Today we have a Red Letter Day in Lithuania, so all my afternoon was occupated by Komsomolets Classificator. Here we have our first results:

http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-199997211

I still do not possess information about Komsomolets version without filter compartment (mentioned in Princelle book). Any kind of information would be very appreciated ...

Regards,
Aidas
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 18 2008 :  3:44:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AidasCams

Yuri,

Thanks for your missing links ...! I have only one assumption for your Komsomolets #476444 with centered window - the rear door is replaced from the later batch. I have checked all known early "counter" Komsomolets and all of them are left-sided ... So, good news for Vlad indeed , while 1st version has only two types, not the three ones ...

I need some more time, to make my initial conclusions. Now I have at least 5 versions with 8-9 types ...

Regards,
Aidas



Aidas,
Good job on the Komsomolets classification.

Swapped back on my "counter-center window" Komsomolets is one of the ideas. I am not sure how valuable this camera was, and if was worth the trouble.

Another theory - we've seen just about any transitional combinations of parts on the Komsomolets. So this may be just one more transition - - from counter to no counter. maybe they moved the window to the center and checked if it was usable for 120 film, and later removed the counter (covering it with a blank side wall).

Why this transition would have a lower number that other 'side window"cameras - I do not know. We need more Komsomol'tsev to get to the truth.

I wonder if anyone has a Komsomolets manual - I want to understand what is achieved by having a window on a side.

Yuri

Yuri
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 18 2008 :  4:05:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Komsomolets people!
At first Salute to all!
I shall remember you that 120 films also called BII-8 in Germany and simply 60mm in Russia, had only 6x9 markings up to 1950!. That way, all 4,5x6 cameras without automatic counters manufactured up to 1950 had two red windows for the half format and all 6x6 cameras had a left side red window used for the counter start. Exception done to Rolleiflex that invented and patented the device of measuring thickness of film and start the counter (1937). In 1950 also was standartized the placing of the arrows in the paper back four 6x6 pictures before the seensitive film beginings, that way avoiding the red window that should fog certain films of the era.
--------------------------------------------------------------
On departure of those premises, one can say - The 476444 Komsomolets had its back door replaced by a newer one.-
In no way this should affect the counter device of the camera nor its usability as a repaired camera.
Historic Regards!
LP
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
235 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 18 2008 :  11:09:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is an interesting point, but Komsomolets switched to the center (6x6) window in 1948, so I guess the film marked for 6x6 format was already available.

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 20 2008 :  12:12:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Hey Komsomolets people!
At first Salute to all!
I shall remember you that 120 films also called BII-8 in Germany and simply 60mm in Russia, had only 6x9 markings up to 1950!. That way, all 4,5x6 cameras without automatic counters manufactured up to 1950 had two red windows for the half format and all 6x6 cameras had a left side red window used for the counter start. Exception done to Rolleiflex that invented and patented the device of measuring thickness of film and start the counter (1937). In 1950 also was standartized the placing of the arrows in the paper back four 6x6 pictures before the seensitive film beginings, that way avoiding the red window that should fog certain films of the era.
--------------------------------------------------------------
On departure of those premises, one can say - The 476444 Komsomolets had its back door replaced by a newer one.-
In no way this should affect the counter device of the camera nor its usability as a repaired camera.
Historic Regards!
LP



Luiz,

It's very interesting what you have said, thanks!
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 20 2008 :  8:45:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote

originally posted by Fedka

This is an interesting point, but Komsomolets switched to the center (6x6) window in 1948, so I guess the film marked for 6x6 format was already available
.

____________________________________________________________________
In 1950 120 and BII8 were finally standartized. Some films had the center 6x6 marks but believe that neither the length was standard -some were shorter! The Ektachome of 1946 gave only 9 - 6x6 pictures! The film was thicker!
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  02:11:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Luiz,

May I use your information in my website, please?


Regards,
Aidas
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  02:21:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Of course Aidas!
those 1946 Ektachome, Kodak had already: Kodachrome,(for slides) Kotavachrome (for prints from slides {on celluloid paper]) and Kodacolor for prints on paper since 1941, they put on the market the Ektachome in 1946 including all plate formats up and also for Stereo Rolleidoscop: -Using original pre war Agfacolor formulas! That means: Not only the Russians copied Germans. The Americans also did.
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